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Residents rev up for parking fight



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Published Date: 06 November 2008
RESIDENTS in one of the city's most desirable areas are preparing to go to war with the council over plans to take over their private parking spaces.
The city council is currently consulting with locals in the Grange over the introduction of a controlled parking zone.

The scheme, which is an extension of the restrictions brought in elsewhere in the city, seeks to use residents' permits and pay-and-display to prevent drivers using the area as an "informal park-and-ride".

But some homeowners say the restrictions will force them to give up parking spaces which are contained in their title deeds.

Frith Hoehnke, chairman of the Oswald Court Proprietors' Association, said: "The private car parking areas of Oswald Court, together with all the grassed and landscaped areas, are the property of the owners of these houses.

"The private parking areas have not been adopted by the council. The residents do not want the land in question to be subject to compulsory purchase or otherwise dispossessed from them by the city."

In a letter sent to residents, the council acknowledged that the proposal for controlled parking in the S6 zone included a number of streets considered "private parking areas".

The council conceded parking areas in Oswald Court, Blackford Bank, Grange Manor and Trotter Haugh are privately maintained but said they remain part of the city's road network.

In 2006, the controlled parking zone (CPZ) was extended for the first time since 1974.

Local councillors and residents had requested parking controls to combat problems with commuters using residential streets, making it difficult for local residents and their visitors to find parking.

However, some of the restrictions had to be extended when the problem moved to other parts of the city.

Jim Ramsay, owner of The Avenue Store in Blackford Avenue, said: "There are no parking restrictions at all just now and it will change the feel of the area. There's plenty of space on the street at the moment and we don't have any parking problems."

Kate Arnott, of Grange and Prestonfield Community Council, said the CPZ proposals had attracted a good deal of attention in the area, with over 300 people attending two public meetings on the scheme.

"Opinion is balanced in the area," she said. "At the last meeting we had 180 people, and at the one before that there were 140."

A council spokeswoman said: "We are consulting on a traffic regulation order that would introduce parking controls in the Grange area."


The full article contains 421 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Louis Catorze,

06/11/2008 11:51:05
"The council conceded parking areas in Oswald Court, Blackford Bank, Grange Manor and Trotter Haugh are privately maintained but said they remain part of the city's road network"

If these roads have not been adopted by the council then, short of buying them, there is nothing the council can do with/to them.
2

Skip McClendon,

06/11/2008 11:53:13
Council acting as bully-boys, trampling over the legitimate legal rights of residents....whoever woulda thunk it?
3

Logie Almond,

06/11/2008 12:01:54
It may be that some of these spaces "steal" public parking spaces by directly fronting on to an adopted road.
4

BobW,

On the streets 06/11/2008 12:08:32
The cooncil now only see the roads as money making ventures. Why should legal ownership get into their way of squeezing more more from the council/road tax payers. They need to feed their gravy train.
5

alex paterson,

edinburgh 06/11/2008 12:08:44
You pay road tax,park where you want.
6

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 12:22:11
"In 2006, the controlled parking zone (CPZ) was extended for the first time since 1974."

In which case we should go back to the 1974 CPZ.

This constant extension is just anti-car, money-making lunacy. And it is killing the city.
7

P I Staker,

06/11/2008 12:44:23
Now then, let's step back and have a look at this - parking tickets put on vehicles on what is essentially private ground should surely mean that the money goes to the land owner (less perhaps a small admin fee - though to fund trips abroad for the LP it could be as much as 85% of the parking ticket).
If the council take this stance for what are essentially private roads, look out, there will be double yellow lines from your front door, down both sides of your drive way.
8

Dileas,

06/11/2008 12:45:12
Let me get this clear - because the City Council THINKS that parking may become a problem in this area at some time in the future and despite there being substantial private parking in this low density residential area, they are to steal these parking facilities to take as much revenue from the house owners as possible - and restrict the number of cars that each may own.

They have made two mistakes - first, they forget that house owners already know about solicitors (some even are solicitors) and second, this Stalinist approach to "representing the electorate" was what got Labout thrown out.

If the real problem is the city council officials, then the LibDems need to resolve that problem before they are thrown out as well - the next local election is not that far away!
9

Ecto,

06/11/2008 12:56:22
Lets face it we get rid of the cooncilors at the elections but not the tree hugging, car hating, wooly jumper wearing gimps that work in the transport office. Same old anti-car policies year in year out, when will they realise that cars are the preferred method of transport for the majority andthey need to begin to make proper plans to deal with it. The areas of the city with over zealous car parking restrictions are dying and turning into watelands......Dalry Road, Tollcross, now Leith Walk, just look at all the empty property.
10

Colin G,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 13:12:59
It was necessary to create the new resident parking tax zones and continues to be necessary to widen the parking tax zones in order to 'encourage' the use of the Council's park and ride sites.

That this policy means more money out of residents' pockets, concreting of part of the green belt, empty buses trundling back and forward in non-rush hour times, fewer people 'parking and walking' to work, fewer customers for shops in the new parking tax zones is immaterial. Council officials, consultants and builders all get something to do and Councillors can pretend that with 'park and rides' they have done something to stop global warming.
11

Council Insider,

Council HQ 06/11/2008 13:16:51
#9 We don't wear wooly jumpers anymore it's tanktops now.
12

Me, Myself & I,

Here 06/11/2008 13:24:47
#1-Utter rubbish
#2-Inflammtory, ill-informed rubbish
#4-See 2 above
#5-Yeah, right. What colour is the sky on your planet?
#6-Just plain wrong, for soooo many reasons...
#7-You must be thinking of roads legislation in some other country.
#8-See 2 above
#9-Yeah, lets ALL drive to work. That's definitely the solution. Inspired! You should be a "Traffic Expert".
#10-pgph 1 - Seems reasonable & pgph 2 - see #2 above.
#11-I hear they're all the rage in the City Chambers
13

*Mummy*,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 13:28:42
The Council are ruining our city centre with their ill thought out parking restrictions. Each time they create a new pay and display area they are just moving the problem to another area of the city. Look at the state of Craiglockhart now that you have pay and display in Morningside.
14

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 06/11/2008 13:31:49
They should acquire all the Grange mansions by compulsory purchase and let them out to the homeless as well . Vote Labour.
15

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 13:32:43
#12: Unthinking rubbish.
16

Adso,

06/11/2008 13:39:30
These schemes do 'clean up' parking in areas that get choked with commuter/shopper traffic. The Hillside area is a great example of this. In this sense I think the scheme is a good idea.

The problem is that residents face a new tax to stump up each year for their permits. Not a small admin charge or a nominal sum rather a chunk of cash similar to road tax @ £80 - £160 per year. This, I think, negates all of the other arguments and presents the real reason for the move....tax raising. Three new revenue streams out of nothing. Resident parking tax, visitor temporary parking tax and illegal parking tax.

I lived in the centre of Aberdeen in a controlled parking zone. Cost of a permit? £40 per year. That I think is fair enough as someone has to process the permit and adminsiter the system. Edinburgh is 4 times as expensive, can this be expalined?
17

P I Staker,

06/11/2008 13:51:12
#12, difficult to express this without swearing, but let me try.
Its incredible that you know so much about nothing and know nothing about so much.
You should change your therapist on the odd day that they give you a pass.
18

*Mummy*,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 13:59:47
Maybe the Council need to raise revenue to pay for the Lord Provost's trip to India.
19

BuddieWiser,

Penicuik 06/11/2008 14:03:18
The Council's parking policy is very clear: how much money can they extract from drivers regardless of the practicalities & consequences of the policy. If it moves, tax it. If it's not moving, tax it. The Council are taking their lead from the Government - tax, spend & extend their controls over people's lives at the people's expense & for the benefit of the cosseted, bloated, state sector with its unjustifiably high proportion of non-jobs.
20

Me, Myself & I,

Here 06/11/2008 14:15:03
#17-Difficult to express this without being condescending, so I won't even try.
Fact-I know more about this than you do.
Fact-it's not my fault that you're ignorant.
21

Skip McClendon,

06/11/2008 14:27:29
#20

Without evidence to back that up, it's not fact but opinion.

And we all know what opinions are like...everybody has one.
22

Bill MacD,

06/11/2008 14:29:37
What an astoundingly ignorant comment from 5 alex paterson. This typifies the arrogance of car users, who are both wilfully oblivious to the huge subsidies they receive already as they pay nothing remotely close to the costs they impose on society in many ways including time costs to other users of public space, health costs by damage done to themselves and innocent third parties, and pollution costs likewise. These are all paid for by the rest of us via other budgets. And in any case, road tax has absolutely nothing to do with parking.

Oh, and as experience elsewhere has shown, a parking free-for-all quickly leads to gridlock nowadays.

Simply astounding levels of stupidity.
23

Skip McClendon,

06/11/2008 14:32:28
The anti-car commentators need to get their facts straight...

Upon reading the article, it is clear that we are not talking about public roads here. These are areas of private land, owned and maintained by the residents. Why should they hand them over free, gratis and for nothing to the Council?

That's like me deciding I want to live in your spare room, and moving all my stuff in without paying you rent.
24

Me, Misel, eh?,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 14:34:41
#20
If you aree one of these ignorant people who work at that notorious new office (that we paid for) then do you actually live in this city? And I mean LIVE in it.
If you dont, I know for a fact that you have no idea what you are supporting.
25

,

06/11/2008 14:49:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
26

Zoobee,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 14:54:47
let's face facts - the controlled zones will continue to be introduced further and further out as the selfish commuters continue to park as close to the town as they can without paying.

Eventually the entire city will be controlled as far out as the by pass and everyone in Edinburgh will be paying a congestion charge in the form of parking permits.

total disgrace of a situation - if you pay council tax you should get your permit for free - the council should get the extra cash for running the system from pay and display.
27

Jingsitsme,

EDINBURGH 06/11/2008 15:04:42
Just because they live in the Grange they should not be excempt from parking restrictions that we are all having forced on us. If they don't want them in their designated area - for example Oswald Court - let them buy the road and be responsible for it's upkeep and that means cleaning and gritting. At the moment apparently they think it is the councils jobs.

Just because they are solicitors they are no better people just some of the 'Morningside people - all fur coats and nae knickers brigade'

Well they no different from us - we pay so why not them!
28

tumshie heid,

06/11/2008 15:31:12
#27 What an astoundingly bad interpretation of the situation.
They DO own these roads. Can't you read?
29

fresian,

edinburgh 06/11/2008 15:40:54
These private parking areas are quite commonplace and belong to the property owners in the same way that a private driveway up the side of your house does. ASs such, they have no right whatsoever to touch them.
30

Me, Myself & I,

Not in Waverley Court 06/11/2008 15:46:23
#24 Not guilty. And I'm not supporting or opposing anything, merely pointing out that many of those who choose to flap their gums on this site appear to have little or no understanding whatsoever of what they are talking about. They vent their opinions (something #21 accuses me of as well), but clearly without any basis other than the fact that policy/law/Council inconveniences them and is therefore "wrong".
31

Skip McClendon,

06/11/2008 15:48:47
#30

Well, personally I am not incovenienced by this Council policy at all.

I just find it unacceptable that the Council should try to tell residents what to do with land that they (the residents) legally own and maintain.
32

Me, Myself & I,

Still here 06/11/2008 15:51:14
#28-Thank you for proving my point. Of course they own the road. Actually, so do I. The bit ouside my house, out to the middle of the road, that's mine that is. Can I stop you from parking on it? Nope. Can I stop you from driving on it? Nope. It's still mine, but it's the Council that decides who uses it, not me.
#29-Ooooh, so close and then you get it all wrong. Nice try, though.
33

fresian,

edinburgh 06/11/2008 16:14:35
32, you will find that you actually own the solum ( i.e. the ground underneath the road. The road itself is public i.e owned by everyone and maintained by the council on behalf of the public.
34

Skip McClendon,

06/11/2008 16:23:54
I own the world. I'm just generous enough to let you all live in it.
35

tumshie heid,

06/11/2008 16:38:59
#32 I bet you don't own the road outside your house at all, unlike in this case where the people do.
36

fresian,

edinburgh 06/11/2008 16:41:56
34,

I tried to own the world in my last life, but some nasty British, American and Russian soldiers ganged up on me and stopped me and my mate. My friend has been reincarnated as Alexei Sayle... He still looks like he did the last time....I don't
37

Incandescent,

06/11/2008 17:38:10
#22 Ahhh, here you go again about "the huge subsidies they receive". Once again, for your benefit, the tax revenue generated from motorists is so great that it supports very significant expenditure, including health services, over and above roads allocations. Motorists subsidise non-motorists, so just stop your ridiculous green propoganda right now.
38

Langenburger,

06/11/2008 17:40:05
Whenever and wherever the CPZ expands it brings a new war zone to the unlucky people on the outer cusp.
Our council do not seem to have the brains to think things through and the only thing certain is a chaos caused by their muddled thinking.
The sad thing is they see it as a way of raising revenue and that is the wrong starting point.

39

Maxibus,

06/11/2008 19:15:36
The Labour is no longer in power in the City so why do some people keep blaming them for everything they don't like?
Isn't there a ballot on whether the CPZ is introduced in an area?
What happened in Morningside over the CPZ?
Where should I go for my holidays this year?
40

Jingling Geordie,

Sunshine on Leith 06/11/2008 19:30:26

First Class trips to Kalkota (Calcutta in auld money) have to be paid for and the dosh has to come from somewhere.
41

sixty,

edinburgh 06/11/2008 19:33:33
As a house owner in the Grange i can't wait for them to bring in tighter parking controls. Stop the bumper to bumper parking by commuters etc. The street becomes narrow, dangerous and people seem to park where ever they like ignoring the white lines on humps, driveways etc. Bring on the permits and quieter roads, BLISS.
42

Mr Fuzzy,

Edinburgh 07/11/2008 02:33:04
Every time a pay and display parking system is introduced onto a particular road (along with the associated yellow lines) the motorists just park that little bit further along the road and walk that little bit further ...

43

Me, Myself & I,

07/11/2008 08:18:00
#33-Yup, the "solum", which you can very loosely translate as "land".

Who builds roads? Answer: Not usually Councils.
Who decides when a road is needed? Not usually Councils.
Who owns the land on which roads are built? Not usually Councils.

Does the Council own the road? No, the law says that Councils can adopt roads. Adopt, meaning "to take on responsibility for". No transfer of ownership. No transfer of deeds to the Council. So how exactly do Councils own the road? They may maintain some of it, they manage and control it, but they almost never own it. When a road isn't needed any longer, does the Council say "that's ours", then roll it up and move it? Er, no...cos it was rarely theirs in the first place.

Ownership is not the issue. Responsibility is. And the law says that Councils have responsibilities for both adopted roads and for private roads. Them's the facts.
44

fresian,

edinburgh 07/11/2008 08:45:04
43, The council does not have responsibility for maintaining or managing private roads. You are correct in saying that the council does not OWN the road, public roads are MAINTAINED by the council on behalf of the PUBLIC i.e everybody in the same way that parks, playing fields etc are. As far as building new roads is concerned, the developer will build the road, normally to the standard required for adoption by the council in order to provide access to the properties within the development. There is a requirement within these development to provide parking, normally on street for visitors and outwith the adoptable area for the residents. Normally they have to provide 1 space for every 2 properties for visitors and 1 space per property for residents. Only the roads, visitor parking areas and footways will be adoptable.
45

Hmm ...,

07/11/2008 13:44:44
... interesting that the discussion here (ignoring the loose ramblings of people with ne real appreciation of anything) is on parking and commuters.

This article is about houseowners owning their own off-road parking areas and the City COuncil trying to claim that it does, purely so that it can tax these housowners for parking on their own land.

Deluded or Stalinist? Does it matter? We need to replace such officials - their mindset is damaging the city. And that is not what we pay them to do.
46

Brian Ferrari,

03/12/2008 14:39:01
#43

You are just plain wrong.

I'm afraid I don't have the patience to explain why, but I think most people here have grasped it.

 

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